Main, Rumors, Xbox 360, Xbox One

Microsoft’s Xbox Division May be Purchased by Amazon According to Insider (UPDATED)

by on February 15, 2014 5:35 AM 103

UPDATE: Microsoft Chief of Staff for Devices and Studios Group Aaron Greenberg commented in a quite clear cut way:

Ridiculous, cannot believe people would even believe something like this.

Of course, even if it was true, we couldn’t really expect him or anyone else at Microsoft to confirm it before a deal was signed, as this kind of things are never publicly disclosed beforerhand. That said, we have no reason to disbelieve what Greenberg said, as Dodd himself followed up specifying that it’s just a rumor he heard within the industry and that developers are talking about it, so I’d peg its credibility at a rather low level for the moment, as it’s second hand information.

The original article is below:

Industry insider Pete Dodd has a pretty good track record with his sources, and today he dropped something quite interesting: according to him Microsoft is in talks with Amazon to transfer the property of the Xbox One division to the giant online retail corporation.

Two things. Titanfall launch show with @geoffkeighley. Have you announced that yet? Also, xbox bought by Amazon? Bookmark this.

The latter isn’t even close to done. If it gets finished at all. But, that’s the scuttlebutt. Do with it what you may.

Microsoft is looking to dump xbox. Amazon is looking for gaming assets. Talks have started.

The Titanfall launch show with Geoff Keighley is definitely believable, considering he’s working on a Final Hours feature on the game.

The purchase of the Xbox division by Amazon is something I’ll take with a sizable pinch of salt. It’s true that there have been insistent rumors lately from prominent insider and press sources on a possible spin-off of the Xbox One division, but it definitely generates profits at the moment. Wedbush Morgan analyst Michael Pachter defined the possibility “dumb and dumber.” We’ll have to wait and see who will be proven right in the end.

Join the Discussion

  • Psionicinversion

    No chance Xbox is an integral part of a unified experience in your home, theyve spend ages trying to get there now there, there why would they sell it off

    • Pyrotek85

      I agree it would be stupid to do after all this work to get there, but at the same time it wouldn’t be the first time a corp made a boneheaded decision. I could actually see it happening if it sold for enough.

    • PCS4-Box U

      Because you sell it while its profitable so you don’t take a loss. Nobody wants to buy a failing system. I assure you that no company has any desire to buy the Wii U, you know why? Cuz it already failed.
      I’m not saying its going to happen, i’m just saying that would be why.

      • Psionicinversion

        MS has a vision for a connected future and the Xbox is part of that as a central hub. Maybe MS actual goal wasnt to bring the most powerfulest gaming console to market, seems the goal is to be the central hub for connected devices in your home and it is working. Sure the PS4 may sell more but that isnt trying do what the X1 is.

        MS is always plays the long game, theyll be looking 10,20,30 years into the future and they have the money to do it

    • ℛɛᴛʀᴏ ℛɛᴅ

      Stuff happens, game plans change, new careers rise out the ashes of old one.

      MS may have finally realized their goal has cost them more than what it’s worth.

  • delsin row

    poor micro fan :( i”ts ok darlings :lol:

    • Giuseppe Nelva

      I don’t see why “poor.” Amazon is a gigantic corporation with boatloads of money and a distribution chain that could put Xbox in a seriously advantageous position. While I don’t believe it blindly, it’s hard not to see how the brand would come out strengthened, not weakened, especially on the commercial point of view.

      • delsin row

        yes we could say that too. but how much money amazon have? are they have money like microsoft does?

      • Dragon24680

        It depends. Amazon, while having a better opinion of itself amongst people than MS (ironic, I feel many just overly hate MS for little reason), Amazon has way less money than MS. Hell, their total equity is about 3 times smaller than Sony.
        Sony will become the biggest console hardware manufacturing company if that happens, not that it matters much, expect maybe on exclusives front.

        • Giuseppe Nelva

          Equity isn’t the only factor in a company’s wealth though.

          • Dragon24680

            Net money depends the most. Not saying Amazon doesn’t have the money, they reinvest most of their earnings in large expansions, which I feel is a very good thing to do.
            But they have less money than others, that is also a fact. Share values inflate and deflate based on market perception, and hence aren’t a reliable indicator of a companys worth. Net equity doesn’t have those bias.

          • Marcus Roue

            Yes less money means Xbox will have to make do with less. Micro$oft threw money at everything from marketing to exclusive deals. Expect less from Amazon.

            In the end that’s ok. It’s not like the XBone console was a winner anyways. Less powerful than the PS4 and $100 more expensive.
            It takes an idiot to buy an XBone.

          • Psionicinversion

            I dont think MS’s strategy was to bring the powerfulest games console to market, there trying get in peoples homes and bring a unified experience across multiple devices for a connected future. If that was there plan it is working, this is the first iteration of it and the start of getting stuff integrated into the Xbox so you have 1 device to rule them all!!!

            They maybe struggling with the programme guides and that but if there carrying this through to the next xbox and the next and the next theyve got a long time to get it all sorted. They play the long game, look at bing $5billion a year losses at the start, not many other companies would soak up those types of losses to try get a good position as a search engine etc.

          • Redinferno124

            Like I’ve been saying, we need competition, if MS bows out, whose left? Nintendo needs to get its act together before it can be considered competition and Sony needs someone to push against it so it continues to make awesome HQ IPs.

            You all remember how Sony was with PS2 right? I don’t want to go back to that.

          • Marcus Roue

            The PS2 was the most successful console. It had the biggest library of games so I don’t see what your problem is with that.

            Micro$oft is a scumbag of a company who’s only interest is to squeeze every dollar from its customers while giving little back.

            Ask yourself this: When PS+ program came out, what does Micro$oft give XBL Gold users for their long time patronage?
            Stale old games? Yup. Talk about watching their bottom line.

          • Kevin Roberts

            calling millions of people idiots for preferring one console over the other… im not surprised to find such microsoft hating on a sh*t site called “dualshockers”

          • Marcus Roue

            U mad bro?

            If this was such a sh*t site, why are you here dimwit?

        • DJ KID BLAST

          sony are a broke company on the brink of colapse… they cant even afford to make games for there own console i highly doubt sony will be leading haha

          • Jeff

            They have 19 billion on hand, you might want to check your facts.

          • Dennis Crosby

            Actually your facts are wrong if Sony had 19 billion on hand they wouldn’t be trying to sell of alot of there assets and doing major layoffs again

          • Bankai

            That’s not necessarily true, layoffs and the selling off of nonprofitable assets are a natural occurrence in big business.

          • Jeff

            The thing that makes me laugh is a simple web search proves you wrong and yet you still choose to mis rep facts.

            Here’s link since your Google doesn’t seem to be working: http://www.forbes.com/companies/sony/

            19 billion on hand and 160 billion in assets to deal with the 14 or so of debt and 78 billion in revenue.

            Try doing some research next time before you post, kid.

          • DJ KID BLAST

            they are in debt 158billion!!! hahahaha they will be gone it 3 years max!

          • NFL Superbowl

            18 billion, In the last decade, Sony lost 7.8 billion. Now they just added 1.1 billion to that. They’re declining faster than Nintendo ever could.

          • DJ KID BLAST

            they aint got shit! thats why they havent got no money for games just going round grabbing all the free to plays from LAST GEN around 2010 haha sony man jokers… they cant even get a loan because they have a “JUNK STATUS” hahaha worthless company!

          • Jeff

            You’re a moron. The fact that you’re so invested in a company going out of business tells me you clearly have nothing going on in life.

            Virgin perhaps?

          • ℛɛᴛʀᴏ ℛɛᴅ

            Oh look, a wild skinhead appears.

          • Bankai

            Sony is far from broke and even further from collapse, so stop with the bullcrap. And all Sony’s studios are busy making games for the PS4, so once again, stop with the bullcrap.

          • NFL Superbowl

            Sony is Broke, they’re selling divisions and cutting 35,000 jobs world wide to make up for any money they lost. only the playstation brand is doing good for them..

          • NFL Superbowl

            if Sony’s not broke? why cut 5,000 jobs world wide, and sell PC and TV divisions. They lost 1,2 billion dollars, their credit was downgraded to junk , sold their NYC headquarters for 1 billion dollars

          • DJ KID BLAST

            all them 5000 busy devs who have been layed off and cancelling and delaying games left right and centre…and sold 4 of their main headquarters! yep sounds like there busy.. trying to find some money! to stay afloat!… i heard your still waiting for them launch games…delayclub? end of 2015 i heard now? gt5 all over again make up a game to sell consoles and delay it for 4 and half years and when it release its a 90% ps2 ported game! or in this case ps3 hahaha

          • shinitaru

            Did it really take you a whole month to form a reply? I would have thought you come up with something better than that

          • You are flat out wrong

            Don’t be upset, Xbot, Amazon will do a much better job with Xbox than MS could ever manage.

          • DJ KID BLAST

            sorry pony but the only brand thats getting sold is playstation!

          • shinitaru

            More replies to month old comments, just get out of jail?

          • You are flat out wrong

            After Xbox made a $3 billion total loss over the last 12 years and Elop’s now in charge? Xbox’s days is numbered. Deal with it. :)

          • Dragon24680

            Yeah. Only they have about $30 billion net worth left.
            Sorry to break your illusion.

          • DJ KID BLAST

            yerr and only 156billion in debt! sorry to break you sony wankbank

      • extermin8or2

        Really wpuldnt mind this you know-amazon does buisness in a more friendly way they dobt try and anhillate any and all competition but coexist whilst competing because they still sell and make money out of other companies products.

      • NFL Superbowl

        There you are, Stop Hiding Pete Dodd via NeoGaf said you mis-represented him on this rumor, he posted a few comments about you for twisting his words.

        Why don’t you update his comments?

    • PCS4-Box U

      I think I would be happier with Amazon just doing their own thing.

  • You are flat out wrong

    Wow, could you imagine? It would shake the industry to its core. Would be step up from buying Double Helix, anyway.

  • Jeff Pee

    I really don’t know if this is a good or bad thing if this deal gets done…
    but a part of me wants this to happen, because of one reason… Just one reason, to see Pachter be proven wrong!

  • ShowanW

    If Microsoft is even pondering selling the Xbox division, it wouldn’t be anytime soon. Microsoft has integrated the Xbox brand to heavily into other parts of Microsoft products.
    A positive is, that it’s Amazon. A company that most of the world loves. I would rather it be Nintendo, that buys the Xbox division, but that’s just a dream.

    Amazon would have to pay a heavy license fee, considering that the Xbox One has a stripped down Windows OS and all.

    If this is even being thought about, I would say it would be a buyout. But Microsoft still being paid to work on the OS’ on the physical box. Amazon is a major player in the cloud server game, so it has more than enough servers, for dedicated server gaming.

    Any my final question is, What happens to the Halo License? Does Microsoft say screw it and Multi plat the game? Or does it try to charge someone a insane amount of $$$ to buy it from them?

    • kevin

      They could sell the division but keep the Gaming IPs and use them to sell their Future OS on PCs.

  • Huseyin Unsal

    I’m highly sceptical of this happening, if any company was going to buy the Xbox division wouldn’t be a cash rich company like samsung ?

  • Ritsujun

    Another Xbone180 for the Xkeletons.

    • bigshynepo

      And why wouldn’t Microsoft come out and deny this rumor?
      This would be a DISASTER for the Xbox One if this rumor picks up steam. No one wants their console being sluffed off to another owner during it’s lifecycle and I bet Microsoft will be on the offensive for this rumor.

      Even if these talks are happening, these talks would be VERY confidential and very few people in both companies would have even the slightest details of these type of conversations.

      • Ritsujun

        Exactly.

        • hayanaonaa

          They have denied this idiotic rumor

      • hayanaonaa

        they have denied it, don’t be an idiot!

  • mos

    NOT A CHANCE, amazon havent even turned in over 10 years, how do people magically think they can up and buy a 10 billion dollar division, without much experience in that space. Sorry but amazon aren’t reckless

  • Jeff

    Huh? Why Amazon?

    • Brian Murphy

      Because they have the money, they already have cloud servers in place (which Microsoft used prior to the Azure push), and they’ve been increasingly interested in being a content delivery platform. Makes sense actually.

  • PatcherStation

    Would Amazon bugger up the Xbox brand? Probably. Look at Amazon’s LoveFilm, it still continues to be plagued. It didn’t go down too well when the monthly fee went from £10 a month for 2 discs at a time, to £12 for 1 disc at a time. Most new releases take years to stream. Xbox will turn into some big subscription block. Games will go download only at comical prices. Downloadable games can top £60. Paying for DLC, it’s sad that enough gamers pay into it. £430 for an Xbox One, I wonder how it’d go with the Xbox Two (if it happens), more so if Amazon is in control. Amazon’s plan is to have Kindle and Xbox together. Basically, do away with books and discs. At some point, a console will have to start this digital age. That’s Amazon’s future plan.

  • MrZweistein

    I call BS. First, this would contradict the actual strategy of MS to get a important footprint in the living room. Second, some investors trying very hard to convince MS senior management to sell Xbox and other consumer product lines and to change strategy into b2b-only, therefore they spread rumors all day long to reach their goal but without any foundation.

    • ℛɛᴛʀᴏ ℛɛᴅ

      The MS corporation as a whole as changed in these last few months. It has a new CEO now – which currently only wants to focus on Win8. I think they’re giving up on the idea of ‘taking over the living room’ which Apple and Google are leading.
      They’ve wasted so much resources on that and seen zero success. They’ve lost over 1.2 billion just off their tablet brand, and Win8 ain’t doing as well as Win7 did.
      MS to sell off the Xbox brand is logical, but is it probable? I don’t know, it’s all up to what the CEO wants to focus on.

      • MrZweistein

        Exactly, the company was restructured to strengthen the common goal (strategy) they are after. They have put the silos to rest and have mixed their organization up like Apple did to strengthen the ties between different product groups and to lerverage from the overall talent they have. Their efforts are going directly into the opposite direction to what the rumor says. I don’t know your background Dude, but you need to understand how companies are working. Secondly do you really think a CEO can command a whole company and it will execute on it no matter what., then dream on. It is not happening in such big companies were are talking about here. The process of shifting strategies is a very long process in which you have to convince all your important stakeholders and key personnel, otherwise you would lose them quicker than you might expect. As the IT and software business is about talent this would be your death in mid-term. So I repeat, the rumor like it is out now is completely bullshit and follows a hidden agenda from some shareholders or from the competition.

    • NFL Superbowl

      Pete Dodd via NeoGaf has issued a clarification, saying Duel Shockers.com mis-represented his quote in a way as if deal is confirmed. he blasted this site for twisting his words..

      Updated Source is in this article

      Microsoft Dumping “Xbox Division” Rumor Looks LEGIT, Amazon In Talk To Buy It Says Insider: UPDATED

  • Boerewors

    Just finished an article about the future of Xbox where I suggested Amazon or Samsung could buy the division all together (with Apple and Google also being interested, but that doesn’t seem likely) and how that can shape up to be a good thing. A new owner would probably go for an Android version specifically for consoles which would narrow the gap between mobile and console gaming. But the biggest plus would be the frequent updates and better prices for digital games. A retailer like Amazon could save a shitload of money on shipping and practically have a monopoly if there was a “steam” for the consoles which they controlled. With Amazon aquiring developers they can be devs, publishers and store at the same time.
    People who say MS would never do that are probably not aware of some influential investors who want a lean an mean MS, with no excess fat. Sure, if you want to “control” the living room a designated console a must, but the Xbox has been a costly “toy” for MS from the getgo. The way MS is approaching the console market it’s almost impossible to secure decent profits in the long run, and the poor Xbox related numbers are just the tip of the proverbial iceberg; costs like R&D for Kinect aren’t even taken in account and MS has really been juggling with numbers to make the Xbox seem like less of a failure (failure is purely based on the numbers, I’m nor referring to the product). With the new CEO who has openly admitted he want MS to go back to their core business, I’m sure MS is already looking for potential buyers or perhaps partners. The brand Xbox has got a pretty good value at the moment but with all the insecurities surrounding the console market, I believe Xbox as a name will be of little value within 8 years.
    Looking at the market, the new CEO, the vocal investors wanting MS to drop it and a lot of potential buyers I think it would be best for MS ánd consumers if they sell it within 1 or 2 years….I honestly believe that if they don’t, this will be the last generation of Xboxs, regardless of the succes of the One.

  • PCS4-Box U

    lol, even Microsoft seems to think XbO is dead on arrival.

    • Budgiecat

      Not just Micro$oft, every sucker that bought one thinks that.

  • ilovegoogleglass

    That would definitely limit Xbox One. Amazon literally has no resources to manage them. Buying Xbox doesn’t bring the engineer and maybe game studios. Hopefully not, I will loose all love for Microsoft if they do so.

  • RealityCheck2013

    Just leave the Gaming Console business please Microsoft because that would be the best thing really :D

    • NFL Superbowl

      Would be best thing for Nintendo to leave console business

  • Dennis Crosby

    This is hilarious that people believe this bs lol first geoff keighley annouced a while back that he was working with respawn on some stuff for titanfall and to think Microsoft is sell the Xbox brand to amazon is beyond ridiculous

  • ilovegoogleglass

    Thank GOD for the news update. Glad he debunked it.

    • ℛɛᴛʀᴏ ℛɛᴅ

      And you actually believed it? C’mon, of course they won’t admit to that because it would hurt the brand.

      • N2O1990

        So we should believe ass-level rumor?

      • NFL Superbowl

        Pete Dodd via NeoGaf has issued a clarification, saying Duel Shockers.com mis-represented his quote in a way as if deal is confirmed. he blasted this site for twisting his words..

      • NFL Superbowl

        Notice, Duel Shockers did not update Pete Dodd quotes, that’s because he blasted this website for representing him on a silly little rumor that was never suppose to be taken seriously.

    • Mitch

      Then what did you expect him to say? If he would stay quiet, the general audience would take it as a yes.

    • superkarma

      Nothing was debunked.

  • Brian Murphy

    Unfortunately for Greenberg, Microsoft’s current track record with factual statements and the Xbox division aren’t exactly stellar. “We can’t just flip a switch” – Major Nelson

  • Averix

    This is a baseless rumor. Until MS finds its direction under new leadership, things like this are just speculative crap.

  • Redinferno124

    LOL I was scared there for a second. We need competition.

  • Redinferno124

    Why would anyone wish this was true? Sony needs competition and MS has the ability to really push the Xbox One with new IPs unlike what they did with 360.

    • Not A PC Gamer

      We don’t need the competition from M$. Any competition from them is always bad for the industry. I sincerely am hoping for their timely demise of the Xbox brand. They deserve to fail after showing their true colors. Scumbag corporation.. all of them.

      • NFL Superbowl

        Yes, we gamers miss the days when Sony told us to get two jobs buy PlayStation 3 ( $599). Never mind the fact Sony rip backwards compatibly from Gamers just to charge us to double dip. to buy the,same games like PS2 classics..

        love the way, Sony made sure gamers could never sue them again, if they ever decide to screw us over next time. funny how you think Sony is not Anti-Customer, despite their proven records vie the years…

        • Not A PC Gamer

          No need to remind me of any of that.. My point is.. Sony’s track record makes them looks like saints in comparison. My advice to you is to take a long hard look at Microsoft’s history of being anti-comsumer, abandoning their products and services with little to no notice to the consumer when it doesn’t meet their bottom line, lying to us all at E3 by telling us the DRM couldn’t be reversed, their cocky and arrogant attitude all across the board during their PR disaster, and hiding 81+ features behind a paywall just screams anti-consumer to me pal.

          Sony’s not perfect but at least they are ran by scumbags with their own agenda in mind at the expense of gamers. Compared to MS, Sony are almost definitely saints..

  • Jessie Bristol

    This just sounds ridiculous, they have said time and time again that they’d never sell the Xbox division. In order for Amazon to buy the Xbox division they would have to pony up some sizable cash, which I would doubt they’d do. If Amazon is planning to build an Android console and compete in that market, why would they buy a console company. I don’t think they would be that dumb.

    • superkarma

      They can say they’ll never sell it all they want. It’s not up to them, but rather their investors…and their investors have wanted the Xbox division gone for awhile now. As for Amazon being the one to buy it, who knows. That’s an entirely different discussion. But as far as the Xbox division being sold in general, it’s not as unlikely as you would think.

      • Jessie Bristol

        Investors can say anything they want, the majority shareholders are the ones who make real decisions. A $1 Billion shareholder wanted the Xbox division gone and nothing came of that.

        • superkarma

          That same $1 billion shareholder wanted Ballmer gone…and look want came of that. I don’t see Ballmer working at Microsoft anymore, do you?

          Just because it hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean it won’t happen. The Xbox division has been bleeding money for many years now, with only recently making a relatively small profit. There’s a reason why there’s always rumors surrounding the Xbox division being sold off.

          I’m not saying it’s going to happen next week or even this year, but I won’t be surprised if it happens within the next few years or at the end of this generations life cycle.

    • NFL Superbowl

      Pete Dodd via NeoGaf just slam, Dual Shockers.com for mis-representing him on this rumor, this website has gotten him alot of hate, and now he’s lashing out and pointing the blame over here..

  • John Pombrio

    Not a chance. MS is busy tying together several disparate parts of their business (op sys, phones, tablets, and game console) into a unifying whole. then there is a the MS server cloud which is an integral part of the XBox. Last quarter, MS games division made twice as much profit than SONY’s game division. Since SONY is already divesting itself of two of their major divisions (and losing a billion dollars because of it), it would make more sense for SONY to sell off the games division than MS.

  • Axe99

    Microsoft isn’t a particularly well run corporation, and they often make some bone-headed decisions – so if they do make the bone-headed decision to spin off Xbox, then it may well be better for the brand and gamers in the long run ;).

  • Solid Snake

    I’m a Sony fanboy, and think Xbox should remain with Microsoft. We need Microsoft around to keep Sony from currupting….

  • NFL Superbowl

    Dual Shockers.com is becoming the TMZ of gaming, they don’t even check their sources, Industry insider Pete Dodd, you know the one who they got the quote from etc just slam them on NeoGa lol

    Last but not the least, Pete revealed that media picked up his quote
    from Twitter and mis-represented in a way as if deal is confirmed: “I
    thought a few people would find it entertaining that this is a current
    rumor and now there are sites saying that I’m saying that Microsoft is
    selling xbox to Amazon. Like I said before I don’t put enough stock in
    this to even make a thread myself. I really wish this one was closed. I
    take the blame, I have serious self-awareness problems as I have no idea
    that I can even cause a commotion like this.”

  • s3ltzer

    I’d believe it. Honestly, with all the shortcoming and shortsightedness of the XBox One, I wouldn’t put it past a major corporation to sabotage their products, with the prospects of selling in mind.

    I mean, MSFT is making the same mistakes that Sony made with the PS3. The only difference is that at least the PS3 was an actual powerhouse. The XBO lacks in power and appeal to developers.

  • oldgamer

    Well I am not sure why they would sell unless they are lossing money already on x1…. and for nintendo to leave the gaming industry….just to comment on nflsuperbowls comment……would be a sad day…..don’t get me wrong…..but their target ppl are kids……not young adults…..so that is why the WiiU don’t appeal to most older gamers…but just a reminder for older gamers….if it wasn’t for nintendo we probaly would not be playing the games we play now…..they revitalized the console system….after the atari crash.

  • gimmegimmekevin

    I’m not saying this will happen, I don’t think it will. But the Xbox One doesn’t “generates profits” at all. I don’t think Microsoft makes profit off anything Xbox related, I’m pretty sure they lose like $2 billion a year on that part of their company.

    • MrZweistein

      Xbox generates GP thats what is important. Even more important that the Xbox division generates a constant stream of revenue day by day. Thats what most companies go after. Many comments in this article sections shows that some commenters have clearly no clue how companies and businesses are working.

  • MrZweistein

    Hi Guiseppe Nelva, can you please make another update on your article and put in the response from Pete Todd on your article in NeoGAF? I know you love to take your article ideas and content from there, why not this time, in this case?

    • N2O1990

      Actually,even the original gaf thread already locked in yesterday,so seeing someone still believe it is pretty funny

  • Ana Helušić

    PS4 winss

  • http://www.facebook.com/trekx trekx

    It will never happen. Microsoft has to high of an investment to pull out now plus why would they? The Xbox One is
    doing great, its doing far better then the 360 did in this same amount
    of time and with hit games like Titanfall, Halo 5 and a new Gears of War
    coming it will only do better plus Windows Phone and Windows 8 have
    deep ties to Xbox so they would have to find a way around that … The
    thing i don’t get is why people think that just because you’re
    competition is doing better then you that must mean your doing bad. Both
    Microsoft and Nintendo are doing just fine they are making plenty of
    money and aren’t going anywhere anytime soon…

  • Thomas M Richardson

    Hate to tell you guys this but in the same breath where Pachter says the Xbox division profitable, he goes on to say that over all the division has lost money.

  • Mik3t

    its not even second hand information its 0 hand ie made up

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